My company's transition away from JUCE

I just wanted to give my thanks to everyone that has offered their support by answering the various questions I’ve posted here over the years. Unfortunately, however, I must also announce that my company will be gradually leaving JUCE behind.

I wish I didn’t have to say this, but the sad reality is that the audio development community is just too small to support our goals. In my country (Australia) there are too few audio devs, and even fewer people who know JUCE.

And so, my way to get around this, is to jump into the browser. We’re moving from JUCE to Angular + node.js. And we’re going to be building a platform that makes it easy for anybody to get into audio development, using JavaScript.

We already make cutting edge AI algorithms and will be allowing anybody to control our AI through an API, by coding in simple JavaScript.

Hi DrTarantism,

I am interested in your transition to Angular + node.js so even though your company may leave JUCE, I hope you won’t leave the JUCE forums! :blush:

Out of curiosity, what is it that your company does, and why does your product depend on an active and perhaps local development community?

1 Like

I don’t depend on a local development community. I just think that the purpose of music developers should be to gradually make things better for musicians over time. And I want to make it easier for that to occur. There is a lot of duplication that occurs with coding. Tonnes of boilerplate code that everyone writes repeatedly. This is not how programming should be in an ideal situation.

So, my company is democratising music. We’re going to make it more accessible so that more people participate. I want to do for music what instagram has done for photography. Instead of a small group of engineers paying huge amounts for software/hardware and a small group of artists paying for engineering/producing services, there should be a massive amount of people paying a reasonable price. That’s the change I’m working to bring about. Changing the dynamics so that its easier for programmers to write innovative code, and easier for them to collaborate, and also making it easier for artists to make songs and collaborate.

Yeah I’ll still keep my forum account but I haven’t been using it much lately.

and what GarageBand for iOS did for music production and the type of music that gets produced nowadays on SoundCloud?

Instagram kinda made photography no longer have value. It’s basically impossible now for a professional photographer to make a living any more. The same thing happened to studio owners and tons of producers who relied on clients to make a living. Now you just need a Laptop, Ableton, and a massive loop library from Splice to become the next Post Malone on SoundCloud.

I hear this sometimes. But for whom is that really a problem? It’s been basically impossible for a professional poet to make a living for at least a hundred years, if not a thousand, because “anyone can do that”. Musicians, dancers, painters, sculptors, actors, writers, circus performers, etc. Maybe tattoo artists have an edge here, until they popularize a way to do that on the net.

To me, this doesn’t sound like a bad thing for society. A few centuries ago, there were people pushing out sonatas and string quartets, and while most of them have been forgotten by most of us, their presence probably helped to stimulate and challenge the creators whose works we do remember. Same for garage bands in the 50s, 60s, 70s… There were lots more of them who were forgotten long ago, but I don’t think it hurt the field.

Do you honestly think “Gucci Gang” by Lil Pump sounds better than Beethoven’s Pastoral symphony or a film score by John Williams?

Can you honestly admit that, as a piece of art, Gucci Gang is a greater contribution to humanity than other music made with more “antiquated” technology including, but not limited to, actual musical instruments.

It’s just a metaphor. Don’t take it too literally. I’m making something far better than Instagram and I’m putting a lot of thought into this. I’ve been talking to Anthony Fantano about being an advisor on this, and the professors at my local university who care deeply about quality art are getting involved too. This is going to be very good for the art form.


Here’s hoping! Because Instagram basically made everyone with a phone a professional photographer, just like how anyone with an iPhone or iPad instantly became a dope soundcloud producer once GarageBand for iOS gets installed.

I have AI algorithms that can compose drums better than I can. My instrument composing algorithms are getting good too. The API that I’m building will allow new genres of music to be invented by nerds like us through JavaScript. The future doesn’t belong to the lil pumpernickels of the world

I prefer an inclusive future where many people can make money through making music and programming for music.

Well, we all wish you good luck. Society doesn’t think software or music should be a paid product anymore (thanks napster and warez) unless it’s performed live.

This debate is as old as the images by the cave men. It suffers from the idea, someone could define, what is good art, and what is bad art. That is not possible. IMHO art is what happens with the viewer or audience. If a pile of puke does something to you, it’s art. It communicates.

While I don’t have to enjoy it, it is not my say, if it’s good or bad.

The loss of value of immaterial goods is something to bemoan, but it is a fact.

Personally I am sceptical about AI, I think it will end up in a constant repetition, culminating in something the algorithm detects as “optimal”. So one day there is nothing new, nothing unexpected.

But there will be demand, if everybody can feel like creative by pushing a few buttons, it made some people happy. I don’t have to listen to it…


There are different approaches to AI. Broadly speaking, there is the “driverless car” type of AI that you describe, but then there is also the collaborative AI that I am building. The AI can be completely controlled. In fact, there is literally an input parameter where you can specify the percentage of control that you want to give to the AI.

You can compose some drums then get the AI to compose something that is 98% similar to your original sound, and it will reliably do this for you. Problem solved.

My algorithm does not try to find things that are “optimal” in a universal sense. It tries to find something that is optimal relative to your style. So, whatever you do will influence the algorithms and vice versa.

Best of luck to you!

I agree C++ for interfaces/data models/etc. is very much the way of old. I will be very interested to see what you come up with.

Re: the worries of democratization of music: interesting comparison between the death of professional poetry and photography. Indeed, music has not had that time yet. I imagine it’s because it is a lot more difficult to make something that sounds pleasing while still being unique compared to the camera workflow of pushing a button to take pictures followed by slapping a pleasing filter on the output buffer. Even with all the affordances of presets, mastering plugins, and workflow-enhanced DAWs out there, it still requires a lot of effort to put something together that one would consider listenable. After nearly a decade of trying to write music, master DAWs, and hours of YouTube tutorials, I still struggle to produce something more than the musical equivalent of programmer art. That’s actually why I started learning audio programming, because I found I was a lot better at writing audio tools than using them :wink:

Best of luck!


I think it is a rather flawed comparison because it doesn’t take into account that art forms evolve into something new and are generally replaced by something else. Poetry was once something that was performed live either as a standalone or as part of a play (e.g. Shakespeare). And in the modern world, we generally get our entertainment via TV or computer, so poetry has been replaced by mass media.

And photography is a personal service that has mostly sentimental value. That is, if I produce an average song about my birthday, and you take an amazing photo of your birthday, it is more likely that strangers will appreciate the song more than they will your photo in the long term. A song is just a lot more effective at conveying emotions to strangers and it carries exponentially more entertainment value in the short and long term.

YouTube has not killed video. And my platform won’t kill music.

I 100% agree, there is no reason, why we shouldn’t make our tools as intelligent as possible. So best of luck indeed!
In fact I am contemplating a very similar approach for a different musical domain.
My concern was more about expecting to be those tools creative, that won’t happen. But they will be fun to play with and time saving.

While I agree, your platform won’t kill music, YouTube is pirating material.
In Germany they don’t pay a single penny in musical royalties! They demand a special deal, that is not on offer. So instead they don’t pay and see, what happens. The war chest is probably well prepared.

But sorry, I was taken away…

There’s a grammatical error here. I don’t understand what this sentence is saying

Sorry, should read:

My concern was more about expecting those tools to be creative, that won’t happen.

What I wanted to say is, the tools will help creatives to focus being creative, instead of micro-adjusting things. That’s where I see the potential. But I am weary, that something genuine, surprising or bold comes out of an algorithm.

But anyway, that is just my pessimistic view on future technology, never mind. I didn’t mean to open a debate about how good or bad the future will be.

Keep up the great work, I am looking forward to your new product :slight_smile:

Well I’m looking forward to surprising you with what the product has achieved thus far. There are many algorithms and they have definitely produced some great stuff. If left on their own, without human input, they can create great stuff some of the time. But the real magic, is how they augment the person.

Its really far beyond saving time, and preventing people from micro-adjusting. It really is like collaborating with someone who has better skills than you, and who has more ideas than you. But you are in charge because you have a better sense of taste than the machine.

You’ll see soon. I’ll post a link to the app by the end of the coming week.