Personal crisis!

Hey there all,

This post is sort of a bit of a rant, as I’m at a bit of a crisis point! Sorry if it’s a very inappropriate thing to post, but I (for some reason) think doing so might be of help (and not just to me).

I’ve just done what I’ve been meaning to do for a long time, and handed in my notice at the cinema. That means I’m now looking for a new job! Finally I have a chance to sort out my chances at landing myself a career.

Anyway, my CV in fields I wish to work is slightly lacking. I have a degree in Audio Technology, which is nice but largely useless for me now! I want to get a full time job that involves programming, but it’s a tough puzzle for me. I’m a very proficient C++ programmer now, and I know that there are many people who would attest to this [mostly people on KVR or from the juce forum who I’ve helped or shared my toys with]. However, I’ve not got any qualifications in this area, and I’ve also got no portfolio of finished apps to demonstrate.

Due to having so little time, I’ve not been able to ‘finish’ any of my bigger applications, and the rest that I have done are VST plugins, and not very intuitive for a demonstration; if someone wanted to see what I could do, and had no VST experience, they wouldn’t get how to load it up! I have lots of unfinished apps on the go (Handxl & the School Quiz Show, along with the GameEngine and DocAppGui framework - and an updated MidiFilter template project) which would be nice to present as evidence, but I don’t know how I’d go about that.

One thing that’s also a problem is that Juce is so good! I don’t like the thought of programming without it, but I doubt most of the jobs going have even heard of it, let alone use it in their projects. Most of the job posts I see advertised nowadays are into Java and C# (and even VB!), which is very disheartening.

Ideally I’d like to get a job programming projects that use the Juce library, but I’ve not any idea how I’d go about finding out whether a company uses it (or is open to using it). Maybe someone here knows a way? Or maybe has direct contact with people who might be in need of programmers? I’ve really no idea how to go about getting employed in such a field. Do any companies employ people to work remotely?

I’m sorry to have laid such a personal rant at this very technical place, but perhaps some aren’t too worried about discussing slightly more real-world topics [although still technically on topic].

Incidentally, I’m just about to join with some temp agencies for the time being, and hopefully get something that will lead to even temp coding posts - which WILL be useful for the CV.

Where are you and are you willing to move? Send a CV to the companies on this list:

It will be hard to get a job programming in the audio industry without an Engineering/Computer Science degree, but right now is a good time to try, since the job market is hot and good developers are hard to find.

Networking and making contacts is probably the best way to get a job. It all comes down to who you know. Maybe try and go to NAMM and meet some people. I think a few people have posted on the forums in the past looking for developers, email them, see if they are still looking, or know anybody who is.

That’s one of the things - I don’t want to write audio applications! My degree is in audio technology but I’ve barely even dabbled in juce audio. I just love programming all sorts of things.

Wish I had a spare job to give you, haydxn!

[quote=“haydxn”]Hey there all,

This post is sort of a bit of a rant, as I’m at a bit of a crisis point! Sorry if it’s a very inappropriate thing to post, but I (for some reason) think doing so might be of help (and not just to me).
Hey! You go girl! :wink:
First thing is to not panic and realize that while you may fuck up your life, you wont die from it. And in the final analysis, even if it does kill you, is a life spent doing stuff you hate worth it? Feel better now? :smiley:

I’ve done the same thing myself. I’m sort of a self employed contractor or consultant. And it’s not that hard, in my part of the world anyway, if you’re ok with writing a lot web shops and inventory control apps.

For small independent contractors, most of the jobs involves databases in one way or the other. I bet you could find gigs where you could build Juce front ends to database apps, though it may take a bit of work to find them.

Either way, it can be tough to get started. Most of my clients found me though personal referrals from other clients, so if you don’t know a lot of people with their own businesses and stuff, maybe it’s not for you.

True, Juce is the most well structured C++ API I have ever come across.

And, most jobs in java/.net are likely to be mind numbingly boring. Like maintaing a 2000 loc object pool class for a transaction control system.

The advantage of going independent is that you do whole apps your self. But then, it’s a lot less secure too.

Sure, but it can be a bitch to find them. I’ve have had jobs in other EU countries, though. (Make sure they actually know how that stuff works though, and that they speak English sufficiently well. While I may be guilty of the same thing myself, I’ve noticed that a lot of people overestimate or over represent their language skills. A language barrier is no fun at all if there is a disagreement.)

A third option to consider, aside from regular employment and being a gun for hire is to develop and sell an application yourself.

Anyway. To give a piece of advice that you can actually use: Focus on what you want, not on what you don’t want. The first makes you clearheaded and goal oriented, the other makes you depressed.

Kraken, where do you live ?
Do you speak foreign langage ? (which one ?)

yes sir ?
(probably you meant haydxn not kraken)


Yes. Sorry for confusion.

get yourself a “vanilla” C++ job then belt out a 2 week project overnight using Juce, therefore convincing them to let you use it. s’what I did. yay!

about the lack of comp sci degree. I’ve only got an ordinary (3 years, no honours - dropped out due to depression and booze) degree in “computing for multimedia and internet”* (formerly just “computing”, IE NOT “computer science”). that being, frankly, a pile of shit. fortunatly I had a friend in the industry whom I had been hassling for learning C++ advice (I’m a Java dude originally. thats what you get in UK undergrad comp courses!) and he took me on when a new project/company formed. I was fucking lucky.

they tested my practical abilitys then asked at the end “you do have a comp degree as well right?” I just had to have one. And they had to tart up a “cool sounding” story of my activitys in the “open-source community”. why? cos they had to justify taking me on to the investors, when the original plan was to get a 10 years experience guy!

could you get on a “conversion” course post-grad maybe? or maybe a full comp MSc (I’ve seen it done from a less relevant bachelors degree than your audio one!)

your going to need a lot more than “juce-fu” h. any decent software company will look for someone who can learn anything fast without complaining. I do Juce for audio/gui stuff, straight C++/STL for hardcore “engine” stuff, C#/.NET for SQLServer 2005 backend and webby stuff, Java for custom Ant modules, and my latest addition! Musical Notation!! Who’d o thunk it eh. (I’m a garage rock guitarist for fucks sake)

good luck!

  • right bunch of losers on that course. I was the ONLY one out of hundreds that actually liked coding. this is despite us all being told on the first day “most of you will become programmers”. pricks.

Yeah, i figured i’d need to expand a bit. I started learning C# by way of the XNA framework, but figured i was wasting my time coding game stuff as i didn’t really have anything i wanted to make. i am really good at learning stuff quickly (especially stuff like that which is pretty similar to c++), i just hope that this temp agency can sort me out with any kind of programming work. that’d be good (actual stuff i can put on a cv).

incidentally i’m in manchester UK (and i don’t speak any other languages - except a bit of welsh :slight_smile: )

I wish I could help.

I’m surprised you’re not keen on C# at all… It was written by the same guy that brought you Delphi, and, in my view, much easier to use than C++ (until, of course, you bring Juce into the mix! :slight_smile: )

Good luck - If I hear of anything, I’ll pass it your way.

Oh, I am quite keen on C#, I’ve just not yet had the motivation to keep learning it without anything to make - and of course having juce as a comfortable friend to code with doesn’t help! Maybe I’ll manage to coax myself into it if I can convince myself that I can spare the time while I’m writing my book.

Hello Haydxn,

You probably don’t know me as I have only posted once or twice on the forum, but I have been following with great enthusiasm your developments and also enjoy your tutorials etc… I must admit that I have not only enjoyed them but also been very impressed. They have certainly helped me get to grips with juce and quickly understand some of the concepts.

I am developing a set of plugins for a real time engine (using juce) and always thought that you would be a great asset but unfortunately, regrettably and sadly budget (as yet) does not allow.
Anyhow due to the quality of your work I decided to dig around my business relations and contacts to see if I could help in some way.

Well would you be interested in being part of a real-time simulation team (specialising in Serious Games and huge scale simulations)?
Well I can’t promise anything but I spoke to a client and project partner of mine which could well be interested in your talents.

I have already explained the little I know about you – very little in fact – as the only things I know about you are based on your participative prowess on this forum. So if you think that this could be of interest to you, please PM me and I will send you my messenger/skype so I can give you a bit more background info about the company (which BTW is not that far from you – Bangor) as well as the the details of the person to contact.

All the best and hopefully read/speak to you soon.


See what bites you get for fulltime gigs. But if you elect to do any contract work to fill in, let me know. I make control and video products and have been transitioning to Juce, and I have enough going on that I could use some help. I could also break it into piecemeal chunks that may suit you, since you’re working in juce also i.e. a class that does X.


Your proposal sounds interesting Montty, but I think Bangor’s a little out of my commuting distance :wink: I’m not in a position to move anywhere either :frowning:

I’m quite certainly open to contract work, as I can do that around other work. Please do let me know if I can do anything for you.

My pleasure Haydxn :slight_smile:

I’ll sure bear you in mind - in the meantime, maybe you could send me the details of your rate(s)?

I have absolutely no idea what to charge for rates. I guess I could try to estimate a preferred hourly rate but then I don’t know how I’d go about quantifying my programming/research time. It’s tough having no professional experience!

I guess you could consider me ‘cheap’ while I learn what it involves - I’m more interested in building up things to put on my CV at the moment.

Never sell yourself short, and do some research on sites like jobserve and there are lots of other sites that list going development rates, use that as a basis and then go slightly cheaper to give yourself the advantage.

Once you have built up enough experience and a good reputation then you start upping your rates.

Always, and absolutely always work on building a good reputation, and maintain it. It is the best thing I have ever done. I get approached and I never go and look for work. It is not easy and it takes time. To be successful it has to be on your mind and a conscious thing.

I do not develop as a profession, I am a IT systems management consultant and I have specialised in that field for nearly 20 years now, I develop as a hobby, but the principles involve for career progression and consulting, contracting remain the same.

People will always be prepared to pay better rates if someone has a good reputation because they know what they are going to get.
If you come across unsure, people tend to shy away, that is why I say never sell yourself short. If you believe that you can do it then act like you can, people notice the difference. Even if you have never done it but you are sure enough of yourself and that shows, you will get the breaks.

Well enough armchair philosophy from me.

thanks for the philosophies :smiley: it’s very useful, but still i don’t think i can wield that sort of confidence yet, as i simply don’t know what would be a good amount to charge. I’ll have to look into it. For the purposes of the offers made here though, i’m open to suggestions purely down to the experience it would provide.

In related news though, I’ve had an appointment with a temp agency to get some work to keep going with (with sensible hours that will keep me out of the darned cinema and allow me to get on with my book). I’ve also, however, had some good feedback from an online agency I submitted my CV to last night, and they’re forwarding it on to a client of theirs - i may be able to get a graduate training placement with a cracking salary. I’ll keep y’all updated with my progress, just for morale’s sake. Thank you all for your advice and support. I hope I can return the favour soon enough due to increased time and income!

Good to see that you have a few options in your hands.

I have PM’ed you the details of my contact. I have explained your situation to her – Ad hoc work could well be an option so, although I can’t guarantee anything - have a chat - who knows - after all, this is another option in your bag and regardless of the outcome, you can only gain from it… :wink:

Continue the good work and let us know how you get on - all the best!!