Anyone interested in developing free and open-source plugins?

[daniel]

Seems somebody has to link it again:

KVR Forum: README - For non-programmers with great ideas - DSP and Plugin...

[Rincewind]

@alltiagocom

Let me give you an example of a plugin that has an issue that I don’t even understand why it’s there and why, after like a year of me reporting it, it’s still not fixed:
ADSR’s Sample Manager.
The plugin comes with an envelope so you can shape the sample. So now you’re working on a sample, for example a kick, and make it short, because it fits the song you’re working with.
Cool.
Now you open an old song that used that same sample. Guess what: the envelope for that sample is now the one you used on that new song… does that make any sense at all? No. Because that just makes the envelope completely useless.

Thats a GREAT example for

@MarcelH

decisions are sometimes made and also the costs (in time, thus money) of simple looking features

Without looking at the code probably every developer reading this right now knows two things:

1. You are using the software in a way it was not designed to work
2. The ratio of “customer want this changed” (I wouldn’t even call it fixed) and “the time it takes to do the change” is not worth doing. Might even result in an entire rewrite of not only the static libraries IO management, but also the AUs IO management.

I personally would even say, that change would make a reasonable amount of people happy, which leads me to believe that the software design is so far of this use case, that it is really not worth to put the hunderds of hours in.

[alltiagocom]

@daniel

They do, just the “getting rich” part is what I would love insights. The market is pretty saturated…

But this is exactly my point: if you guys are talking about not being compensated for an open source project (multiple plugins), if the issue is the money and developers are not getting rich by developing their own plugins, then how is that different from contributing to a plugin that’s a contribution from a lot of different people and where you can all learn from each other’s contribution?
If you spend 300 hours working on your plugin and put it out there for free and you make no money, that’s the same 300 hours that could be spent on this project I’m talking about. That doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t work on your projects anyway.

But back to the “getting rich” part: what I mean is that, sometimes I see the developers talking about being compensated and sometimes almost assuming that the most important part of a plugin is the development, not giving the right credit to all the other steps to make the plugin. That’s why I said that if the most important part if the development (and having an idea for a plugin), then the success of a plugin would be just a developer having an idea and implementing it, right?
Well, if that’s the case, that means that all plugins would be a success, because there’s an idea and there’s the development. But that doesn’t happen, right? Why?
Well because “an” idea doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a “great” idea, right?
You and I can use the same fabric, the same factory, the same tools, to create a t-shirt. Does it mean we will both have the exact same success? Obviously not. Why? Because there’s more to just having a great t-shirt. The way it’s sold to the public, the way it’s packaged, where it’s sold, how many times the stores get new items, etc.

So if we apply the same for plugins, I understand the concept of the market being saturated. I agree… it’s saturated with the same thing over and over and over again. Another compressor that emulates the vintage XYZ. Well, I already have 10 compressors, why would I spend $150 on a new compressor?
But if you come up with something unique enough (but familiar enough too), then your market is not saturated.

Example: the Transit plugin. Can you name me at least 10 plugins that compete directly with this? Do you think they have that much of a competition? They don’t. And even if they did, sometimes the difference is not in the plugin, but other things that go being the development. I stopped using plugins solely because of their horrible customer care, for example.

[daniel]

@Rincewind

Without looking at the code probably every developer right reading this know two things:

1. You are using the software in a way it was not designed to work
2. The ratio of “customer want this changed” (I wouldn’t even call it fixed) and “the time it takes to do the change” is not worth doing. Might even result in an entire rewrite of not only the static libraries IO management, but also the AUs IO management.

and to add
3. you add it for person a and annoy persons b - z

[daniel]

@alltiagocom

But this is exactly my point: if you guys are talking about not being compensated for an open source project (multiple plugins), if the issue is the money and developers are not getting rich by developing their own plugins, then how is that different from contributing to a plugin that’s a contribution from a lot of different people and where you can all learn from each other’s contribution?

So the TL;DR would be: you are working for free anyway, so why don’t you work for free for me?

[alltiagocom]

@Rincewind

I think, a good step in the right direction would be, to just design your ideas, get the UI design finished etc. and when you than ask around for developers, they know you already put in 40-50 maybe more hours of work into making this an open source reality.

I was working on some last year, actually.
The thing is that without some kind of “push” (and I mean, knowing that someone is at least interested) it kinda feels like I’m working for nothing. I mean, I still have the mockups, that never goes away, but then if those mockups are not used, it makes me go back to just making the music.

@Rincewind

You could also start by writing posts/guides on how to do good UI/UX design for plugins, and built a library of assets for everyone open source.

This can be a good idea indeed.
Thanks

[daniel]

@alltiagocom

So if we apply the same for plugins, I understand the concept of the market being saturated. I agree… it’s saturated with the same thing over and over and over again. Another compressor that emulates the vintage XYZ. Well, I already have 10 compressors, why would I spend $150 on a new compressor?
But if you come up with something unique enough (but familiar enough too), then your market is not saturated.

So it’s easy, find an investor and I will implement your genius idea. Since it is easy, you will surely get your money back

[alltiagocom]

@heavylids

Start a GitHub repo, put up designs, mockups, sketches, Max or Pd prototypes, sounds and samples.

I worked with GitHub a few years ago when I helped a developer on a website project, but it’s been a while and I always found it a bit confusing. I have to check it again. Thanks for the tips.

[propunkpaul]

Pro Punk Drums are on GitHub if you’re looking for an example

GitHub - pauljonescodes/pro-punk-drums:...

Maybe it’s a UI only a developer could love, but I think it turned out okay

[alltiagocom]

@baramgb

Sorry, there are plenty of open source projects out there, if you want to make a difference, contribute to that

I don’t have to look at open source projects. You would be amazed at how many hours I spent building mockups even for companies I bought plugins from, just because I truly believe that they could benefit from some improvements.
I own the PlugSearch plugin and Rinus has been super open to my ideas and I would list all the things I suggested and he implemented, you will see that my contribution is there. That doesn’t mean he does all the things I suggest, of course.
What I mean is that I’m constantly contributing when I can. But I can’t force them to do anything.

@baramgb

But I don’t really get, what you want from us?

I think this question is always the wrong one for me. It’s not what “I” want from “you”.
I suggested that this could be made. Again, it’s not “my” plugins. If you find a project on GitHub and you feel like contributing, do you message the person behind the project and ask: hey, what do you want from me?
No, you just contributed. It’s that simple.
In this case, if someone is interested in spending whatever time that want to spend into fixing a bug, improving a feature, etc, awesome. But if not, it’s ok. It seems to me and we are debating a lot about this when maybe some of you are already not interested and all you want is for me to quit the idea. So I ask you now: what’s your goal with that approach?

[MarcelH]

@alltiagocom

If I would ask you: would you rather click a button to load a sample or click “File > Load > go to the folder with the sample > click the sample > click Load”?

I would probably say that I would prefer dropping samples onto the sampler.

That’s the engineer in me.
Does take more time to implement.

Also, I think, that some free plugins being bad might be more causality then correlation…

[daniel]

What was not mentioned yet: if somebody contributed to your github, you still don’t have a plugin. For 20 hours fun development there are 200 hours which nobody enjoys:

• setup the building
• create installers
• figure out codesigning
• fix bugs
• spend 100 bucks in an Apple dev cert per year
• spend 300 bucks for a windows certificate
• spend 480 USD in a juce license
• figure out a new codesign requirement

But yeah, apart from that it is really a walk in the park

[heavylids]

If you’re interested in working in open source software it is really worth getting to grips with it and any developers you work with will be looking for Git skills anyway. Start with a simple use case for yourself - a document store for your designs with the benefit of a historical paper trail of the changes you make.

[MarcelH]

@alltiagocom

As someone once told me: you know the best place to find ideas? In the cemetery…

Absolutely true. I feel however many died because it turned out harder to implement then initially anticipated.

[MarcelH]

@heavylids

If you’re interested in working in open source software it is really worth getting to grips with it and any developers you work with will be looking for Git skills anyway. Start with a simple use case for yourself - a document store for your designs with the benefit of a historical paper trail of the changes you make.

Great suggestion. And if I like the idea I will honestly consider donating some free time.

[MBO]

@alltiagocom

So if I apply that same mindset, only cooks can open restaurants?

So go and open an open-source restaurant. The world will surely benefit!

[gavinburke]

@alltiagocom

That being said, I’m not a developer myself, but as I said, I have an extensive experience with music, working with plugins, studied UI/UX, I’m constantly reading and studying about marketing and branding, etc.

I can see the logic, developers make free open source plugins, they are a bit crap, so why don’t they make me my plugin for free as it won’t be crap. They will still be writing a plugin and not a crap one so win-win.

The bit you need to comprehend is that making something for yourself ≠ implementing someone else idea. For someone to do the latter your going to have to pay them as it is, in your words “building my plugin”.

I’d suggest that the leg of the chair your missing is money to pay people implement your idea. If you get that right you’ll have no problem getting someone to build your plugin. That’s basic business 101!

[Mrugalla]

feel invited to come around in my discord group, where you can then give me UI/UX feedback on my plugins, after having tested them. I also make open source freebies exclusively so far and I’m always interested in a 2nd opinion. Sometimes I also invite my community to discuss certain decisions with me and would be cool if there was a little more action at those times: Mrugalla Development

(everyone else who feels like that’s fun is also invited)

[kerfuffle]

I’d be happy to make open source plug-ins for you at my usual hourly rate.

By this I mean, open source needs to be funded just like anything else.

[benvining]

Precisely this. Open source and free products still need to pay the people creating those products.