Anyone interested in developing free and open-source plugins?

[reFX]

1. On-budget
2. Good quality
3. On-time

For free, open-source work, pick one of the three. For a paid job, you get to pick two.

[anthony-nicholls]

@alltiagocom

So if I apply that same mindset, only cooks can open restaurants? Only people who can build cars can start a car company? Only pilots can start a new airline?

I think the point others are making are “no” you don’t need to be a cook (car builder, pilot, etc.) but if you’re not, you’ll likely need to pay for one. So if you’re a non-developer looking to start a project that requires a developer (open source or not) expect by default that you’ll need to pay for that development time. Yes some developers do contribute to open source projects in their own time but normally they are either…

• a personal passion project they wanted to start
• a project they are relying on or using for something else
• a project that is well established and interests them (in some cases to gain experience)
• a project that they used to be paid to work on but they still follow and contribute too

I’m sure there are exceptions or other use cases others could think of but getting started is often the hardest bit and implementing someone else’s ideas is not normally the most rewarding, esp. for professionals already working long weeks on this kind of thing.

If you’re interested in getting involved in some existing open-source plugins there is a great curated list of them here. I would suggest that would be a good place to start as you might get a bit more traction on something that’s already started. You may find that then helps you build the skillset you need to get your own ideas started and maybe others will be more interested to join you at that point, esp. if they’ve had positive experiences working with you on other open-source projects.

[caustik]

Just try to imagine going onto a forum of plumbers, telling them you’re not a plumber but you would love to give these plumbers some ideas for plumbing work they can do for free. That you’ll come up with the ideas and then they do the work.

[Mrugalla]

@alltiagocom

And sometimes most of the issues I encounter with plugins (paid or free) is that it’s clear that whoever is developing them, don’t use the tools on a daily basis

I agree with this. When I started developing plugins I suddenly had less time to make music, which shaped my workflow to become more streamlined, but less explorative. I’m aware of that problem and regularly take time-outs from programming to explore plugins casually and refresh my perspective again. There’s also some truth in freebies sometimes being underwhelming in terms of workflows. Often times devs can’t even be arsed to make mousewheel behaviour feel good. I don’t think they are always unaware of the problem, but just put it lower on the priority list than i would do, because they need to meet deadlines

[thecargocult]

This sounds amazing. Design by committee, at my expense, with no chance of getting a return, and better yet, we get to cannibalise market share which would otherwise be funding the greedy capitalist plugin companies.

[alltiagocom]

@MarcelH

I would probably say that I would prefer dropping samples onto the sampler.

This is clearly an exception, because if you would make music on a regular basis (which I would assume you don’t, if you are working as a full time developer), you would know that dragging and dropping files is not a good workflow. If you are trying to go over 50 kick samples to pick 1, that workflow is simply a waste of time and it breaks the creative flow. When you build a plugin, you build it for the majority of the users, not for a very small people who feel some kind of “excitement” of dragging samples 1 by 1. Also, you can always offer both options, but having buttons to quickly load samples in the same folder, is a must. Imagine if all synths that allow you to save presets, had that same mindset and would require you to drag and drop preset files…

@daniel

create installers

I’m aware of many small developers/companies who offer no installers. Who simply share the .component file (for Mac). If that’s what you are referring to, the file that automatically adds all the files? Start small and grow from there.

@daniel

• spend 100 bucks in an Apple dev cert per year
• spend 300 bucks for a windows certificate
• spend 480 USD in a juce license

I don’t recall asking anyone to pay for that. Are you assuming I would not pay for that myself?

@daniel

But yeah, apart from that it is really a walk in the park

If everyone would think that way, there would be no Apple, no Nike, no CocaCola, no Microsoft, etc, etc, etc…
“Everything is too hard… let’s not do it”

@heavylids

developers you work with will be looking for Git skills anyway

For the type of contribution I can bring to the table, which is more related to developing ideas, UI/UX, testing the product, promotion, marketing, etc, I don’t see how Git would be beneficial, but I have some basic understanding of Git, I just need to check it again.

@MarcelH

I feel however many died because it turned out harder to implement then initially anticipated.

This is where the winners stand out. If you tell me XYZ is impossible to achieve and you prove me it is, I throw in the towel. But that mindset of “it’s too hard to implement, so I won’t do it”, it’s not my way of looking at things. According to people who became Marines, for example, it’s super hard and only some of them go through the whole thing. They could all quit. That’s why some people succeed and some people go to the grave full of regrets. And I rather work like crazy towards my goal, than looking around me and see a bunch of ideas that I didn’t even try to make them true.

@MBO

So go and open an open-source restaurant. The world will surely benefit!

First of all, that’s not even relevant to what I said…
But you probably have never heard of homeless shelters…? That’s pretty much an “open source restaurant”. But thank you for your contribution to the conversation.

@gavinburke

I can see the logic, developers make free open source plugins, they are a bit crap, so why don’t they make me my plugin for free as it won’t be crap. They will still be writing a plugin and not a crap one so win-win.

The bit you need to comprehend is that making something for yourself ≠ implementing someone else idea. For someone to do the latter your going to have to pay them as it is, in your words “building my plugin”.

I think it’s interesting that you probably read some of my replies, but you still think I said “my plugin”. It’s exactly the opposite. Sure, someone needs to come up with ideas and kinda manage what’s done, otherwise it will be chaotic. But again, if a developer doesn’t want to contribute, what does he/she has to lose? Nothing. The title of my post it “Anyone interested…?” The only answer is Yes or No. I don’t know why you or anybody else here feel so offended by my post when I clearly just started a conversation and exposed my idea. I don’t think I’ve been disrespectful for anyone, but apparently 90% of the replies I’m getting is based on some past experiences from someone who’s not me, who apparently wanted something a bit different from what I’m trying to achieve.

@reFX

For free, open-source work, pick one of the three. For a paid job, you get to pick two.

If that’s how you work as a professional, that’s on you.
I’ve done work for free when it comes to music production, where I was able to do it for free (or on a small budget), it was good quality and I delivered on time. But that’s just me. I understand that other people don’t put their reputation as professionals that high. I value my work, whether it’s paid well, paid on a budget, or free. But again, that’s me.

@caustik

Just try to imagine going onto a forum of plumbers, telling them you’re not a plumber but you would love to give these plumbers some ideas for plumbing work they can do for free. That you’ll come up with the ideas and then they do the work.

Just imagine reading my replies and all you have to share is that…
Imagine thinking that building a plugin is just the code and everything else is completely irrelevant. Yes, because once the code is done, there’s no UI/UX, there’s no logo, there’s no licenses to pay and manage, there’s no promotion, there’s no testing, there’s no customer service (social media, email, etc), there’s no website to create and maintain, there’s no advertisement, there’s no social media content to be created, there’s no tutorials and manuals to be created to let people know how to use the plugin, etc, etc.
But sure, the code is the only thing that is truly valuable and that alone sells a plugin.
As I said, if that’s the case, then why are so many plugins to be made by super talented developers, yet only a few plugins can really be considered successful?
Isn’t it more than just the code? Isn’t it a team effort? Or are you completely discarding the importance of the whole team?

@thecargocult

This sounds amazing. Design by committee, at my expense, with no chance of getting a return, and better yet, we get to cannibalise market share which would otherwise be funding the greedy capitalist plugin companies.

Sorry if this reply of yours is obvious to you and others, but I honestly can’t fully understand if what you are saying is genuine or you’re being sarcastic. And I’m being genuinely confused…

[alltiagocom]

Sorry that I only replied today and that it’s a long reply, but I wanted to address as much as possible and also, that first day, I couldn’t reply more, because it was my first day on the forum and apparently there’s a limit to the amount of replies and then I just got busy yesterday.

Anyway, I just want to say that I completely understand that most of you (or maybe all of you) have this idea of me that is a reflection of what apparently other people try to get from you. It seems that recently someone came here and not only wanted free work, but it seems that he was not having the best attitude.

In my defense, if some of my replies are a bit more “straight forward” and I get a bit more “arrogant” in what I say, is simply a reflection of the same type of “arrogance” I’m feeling from the person who replied. Some of you offered, what I think are genuine and constructive ideas, other replies sound like the person who replied just wanted to throw a stone for no real reason, other than “massaging” their ego for being rude to someone they know nothing about.

As I said on my previous reply, I don’t think my original post was in any way disrespectful for anyone. I explained what I would like to do and I understand that some people may not be interested. All good. But when I get replies that are clearly a way to throw stones “just because”, it just doesn’t feel right to me.

If you are not interested, feel free to ignore the post and move on. Sometimes it’s better than replying and not bringing anything positive to the conversation at all.

[alltiagocom]

That first day, invited by @Mrugalla to join his Discord, him and I spent a few hours talking on his channel and I offered to show him some things I believe could improve not only the UI aspect of his plugin, but also the UX (this was a small change, but still…).

So I asked him to send me a screenshot of one of his plugins, Manta, and I just cut and paste parts of it and reorganized it. A well organized plugin is a good starting point. I only made changes to the right section of the plugin, not the left.
Everything is more aligned and organized (in my opinion). I put the Main section (which I suggested I’m to change to Output, because that’s what it is) to the right, to create a left-to-right workflow, input to output.

I told him I was not a fan of the UI (layout, colors, fonts), and if I could I would completely redesign it so this below is just me reorganizing the way things are presented.

BEFORE (top) and AFTER (bottom)

If you are building a plugin and are having a hard time with something, feel free to share the screenshot and I can maybe offer some feedback (if you think it could be valuable)

[caustik]

@alltiagocom

Just imagine reading my replies and all you have to share is that…
Imagine thinking that building a plugin is just the code and everything else is completely irrelevant. Yes, because once the code is done, there’s no UI/UX, there’s no logo, there’s no licenses to pay and manage, there’s no promotion, there’s no testing, there’s no customer service (social media, email, etc), there’s no website to create and maintain, there’s no advertisement, there’s no social media content to be created, there’s no tutorials and manuals to be created to let people know how to use the plugin, etc, etc.
But sure, the code is the only thing that is truly valuable and that alone sells a plugin.
As I said, if that’s the case, then why are so many plugins to be made by super talented developers, yet only a few plugins can really be considered successful?
Isn’t it more than just the code? Isn’t it a team effort? Or are you completely discarding the importance of the whole team?

I don’t know why my comment launched you into this rant. The analogy was pretty precise on purpose. Plumbers don’t work for free, generally. Plug-in developers much the same. The entire reason I do all of the things you just listed, on top of all of the code, is so I don’t have to answer to some gaslighting managerial type who professes to have some innate “magic” which we as developers are missing from birth which prevents us from doing all of those things on your list.

and although my user interface is probably the worst part of my plug-ins, I really challenge the implication that your example represents an exemplar of quality I’m missing out on by not collaborating with a stranger who joined an internet forum 2 days ago.

[thecargocult]

[evanberard]

@alltiagocom

As I said, if that’s the case, then why are so many plugins to be made by super talented developers, yet only a few plugins can really be considered successful?

Can you share a plugin design that you made that might achieve this level of success?

[MarcelH]

@alltiagocom

And I rather work like crazy towards my goal, than looking around me and see a bunch of ideas that I didn’t even try to make them true.

Yeah. But the developer will be doing 80% of the work.
To be honest if we need a UI designer (and we often do), we hire one. If we need feedback on the UI/UX. We use beta-testers. I’m not seeing what value you are adding? Unless you want to do it for free. In which case we should get on a call today.

[heavylids]

Have a look at GitHub (or Bitbucket/Gitlab etc.) again. These tools are not just about checking in code, they help to organise tasks and plan projects to crystallise your ideas, produce builds, manage bug reporting and releases etc.

Git is important if you are working on testing because you might need to inspect high-level files, commits, specific instances etc. of the codebase to describe issues. UI/UX designers on open source projects will need to check in and out assets so that developers can integrate them into builds and have a single source of truth.

Sorry to bang on about it but it is something very important to have a knowledge about in the open source community and directly related to the items you mentioned.

[daniel]

It was said before: if you care for open source, start contributing instead of asking for free contriutions.

Open source is like everything else:
it works from voluntary works or money changing hands behind the scenes.

[Mrugalla]

@alltiagocom

When you build a plugin, you build it for the majority of the users, not for a very small people who feel some kind of “excitement” of dragging samples 1 by 1.

i think you’re oversimplifying the problem a bit. Some of the most popular plugins of the entire history of VST plugins work by letting you drop inidividual samples to interpret and tweak those, for example Serum. That attracts all the nerdy sounddesigners, who then proceed to make presets and samplepacks with the plugin. They are only a minority of the musicians, who use Serum, but the majority uses their presets, so they are crucial for the whole infrastructure of users. So I’d say a great plugin should be capable of attracting multiple target groups, that even benefit from each other.

[kerfuffle]

@alltiagocom

I believe that having good plugins as free and open source is beneficial for most people and allows for new ideas and improvements that a small team wouldn’t be able to handle.

I kind of want to go back to this point.

• Yes, having the source code for plug-ins available is great. This way we can make sure plug-ins will keep working even as operating systems etc change. And we can fix bugs and add new features. It also provides a great source of learning materials for new developers. I’ve been doing something similar with my plug-in archeology project.

• However, just because something is open sourced doesn’t mean there is a community of willing volunteers to work on it. Lots of open source projects are completely neglected. Maintaining an open source project can be very stressful and unrewarding. It’s a lot of work and the work never ends. Most of the work is in managing the people contributing ideas and code to the project. Users make unreasonable demands and get angry when you don’t immediately implement their pet feature.

• You say “open source is beneficial for most people”. But is it beneficial for developers who are trying to make a living from their creative art (i.e. from making plug-ins)? First of all, most open source contributors are volunteers, so they don’t get paid anything. In fact, they are subsidizing the development with their free time. Second, open source competes with paid products. Why would we destroy our own market by giving away our hard work for free? The fact that free plug-ins are kind of crap is good, because it makes paid plug-ins more valuable.

• A lot of open source projects are financed by large companies who have something to gain by getting their technology used everywhere. I used to get paid to write open source software, and so do many other developers. These large companies are essentially extracting free work from everyone else who is contributing to these projects with bug reports, pull requests, etc. So in some sense it’s a way for them to get free labor.

To recap: open source isn’t as magical as you think it is, and developers who know their worth have no incentive to contribute to open source unless it’s an ideological thing for them (“information wants to be free” etc).

[Mrugalla]

@alltiagocom

I put the Main section (which I suggested I’m to change to Output

From all the feedback you gave me on my design, this is the only thing I disagree with. Your argument was that since the process is at the end of the selected voices’ signal chains, it should also come at the end of the voices’ parameters. i held against that, that I consider gain, cutoff and resonance to be the most used parameters, so it would be good to reduce the mouse travelling distance by putting the output gain stuff next to it. Travel distance has more priority to me because it saves time and nerve in the long run, but ofc a cleanly visible signal chain makes a better first impression

[Qfactor]

Other people have said it, a fundamental problem of the original post is that it implies that people who develop free and open-source plugins don’t get paid. Can you imagine yourself submitting a proposal to a tailor telling him/her you are going to bring him/her second hand clothes for him/her to fix so you can then give them away to people for free? Can you imagine telling that person that you have great insight about how he or she can turn those second hand clothes into great clothing and help with the marketing? I mean is there even a need for marketing when something is already free to take? I would like the OP to answer.

[Qfactor]

I think you have things to contribute as an UI designer, so it may be more productive to post something like “any developers need (free) feedback for their UI’s?” and take it from there. You would win much more sympathy among developers. You can also contact already existing open source projects and offer your help. I read in the post that you already did and became frustrated by their lack of interest. Don’t blame them for that. Instead try to find somebody who values your work like you did with Profile - Mrugalla - JUCE.

[stephenk]

@Mrugalla

so it would be good to reduce the mouse travelling distance by putting the output gain stuff next to it.

FWIW, I liked all the changes he suggested to your design, including putting Gain at the end. Is “mouse traveling distance” actually a real issue in a plugin with a relatively small screen area? Although, since I haven’t used your plugin, I don’t know how often you go back to the gain knob. But logically, it does make sense at the end in terms of signal flow.