[ARCHIVED] JUCE 8 EULA

Ha of all the parts of my message to quote! To be absolutely clear I don’t think Tom or anyone at JUCE wants that! But if you’ve ever tried to clear up a complicated software license involving open source with lawyers … well I’ve found that examples really help.

And also the team has my sympathies as they try to negotiate the right language with their legal team! It’s really not easy. And it sounds like wrapper-usage is a real business problem for the team. So I wish them luck but also am patient to hear what the end result is!

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I’m honestly just impressed that there’s companies out there who’ve gone to the effort of writing wrappers around the whole JUCE framework just to avoid paying a license :sweat_smile:

0/10 for ethics, but 11/10 for creative thinking :clap:

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If your various contractors, designers, etc are working in a repository separate from any JUCE code, and your JUCE project imports from that repository, is this license attempting in that case to throw a rope around that external repository and make it part of the JUCE license as well?

This sums it all up for me.
Trust is the most valuable asset long term, even in what currently looks like a monopolistic situation.

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Just went through this whole thread, and your sentiment and trust in Tom/the JUCE team listening and addressing the raised issues (which are indeed worrisome if they would not be addressed!) is also how I feel about it. I think they are reasonable people, and also need to think about sustainable ways to keep working on JUCE (which I’ve always felt was priced correctly, not too expensive for what it brings).

The thing with “content”/preset delivery people appears to have been heard/understood and is being addressed. I think that will be resolved after some more refinement.

About the thing with contracting/publishing:
A software publishing company being required to own at least 1 JUCE license (even if a contractor already has a license), seems fair to me.
It doesn’t increase the price for the contractor (he already had one), and since it is the publishing company who sells the JUCE-containing software it seems reasonable that they pay for a JUCE license since it’s in their software, even if they have no internal developers themselves. Otherwise what happens if the contractor (who has a JUCE license) is no longer working for that publisher? I mean: the value you get as a software publisher from JUCE surely is worth some license fee, right?
Note that I don’t think that the publishing company should own a license for each contractor they work with: I would say that the contractor needs his own license (subject to the funding/revenue he/she has), and the publisher needs at least 1 license (subject to the funding/revenue he/she has): 1 if they have no or only 1 internal developer touching JUCE code, 2 or more if they have 2 or more internal developers touching JUCE code.
Perhaps a special clause could be added that if the software publisher has no internal developer, then its required JUCE license also covers for 1 external contractor?

The thing with other developers in the software publisher’s team that never even see/touch any JUCE code is the difficult one for me, and I would tend to say that licenses are only required by the developers who work on the JUCE code parts, but I realize that this: 1) may not be simple to delineate, and 2) feels like it would undervalue the importance of JUCE in a big product (if it is a core part of it, which is again difficult to estimate, hence the suggestion by Tom to talk to the JUCE team in these cases I guess, which is also not ideal/clear upfront…) Not easy this one…

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I think that “the need to access the JUCE documentation for doing their work” is a good proxy for who a JUCE developer is/what should count as a license seat.

As for the bindings that allow using JUCE with script languages, developers that program using such bindings probably either still use the original JUCE documentation, or some documentation derived from it (in which case, copyrighting the JUCE doc to prevent derived works could be a good idea). The definition of JUCE developer may be extended to those cases too

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First, quick disclaimer to say I love JUCE and appreciate all of the hard work the dev team puts in to maintain such a complex codebase. Thank you all so much.

Second, it’s understandable that there is a desire to attempt to combat abuses of the license to get around paying for seats in bad faith, such as the lua binding example.

However, it really bothers me that a) no one on the JUCE team read these provisions and raised any flags around the absurdity of some of the resulting scenarios (especially regarding purely content contributions to the product), or b) they did raise these concerns, but were powerless to push back against the mandate from “above”, or worse c) had a hand in crafting some of these provisions themselves.

If it’s extremely hard to effectively create legal wording in which the rules around API interaction/bindings/wrappers are defined, does it really follow that it’s somehow easier to create legal wording that appropriately defines all possible scenarios around the types of content that do or do not qualify? I would imagine that latter is actually much harder. For example, is my installer binary considered part of the Product? If I have a legal professional draft up terms of service or any other legal statement and I include it in my product, is that considered content and does the company providing legal services now need a license? What if I buy non-exclusive stock content (images, sounds, etc.) from an online company and include them in my product (such as Adobe Stock, Shutterstock, etc.), will they also need a license? What if I initially contract a designer to create assets for a completely different non-JUCE product, but then decide to use them instead (or reuse them) on a product that includes JUCE? It’s just a massive slippery slope.

The JUCE team may say, “well obviously not we don’t care about a license agreement, etc.,” but unless all of these scenarios are explicitly spelled out in a gigantic license agreement, there will always be the fear and mistrust that the lack of explicit wording could be used against us in bad faith in the future. Promises are not going to cut it, unfortunately.

Hopefully this really is just an well-intentioned, but poorly executed attempt to deal with some bad faith customers out there, but these broad content provisions, even if revised after feedback unfortunately smell like a pure money grab, and I fear the damage is already done. It’s also unfortunate to upset the majority of the good faith customers by introducing these terms based on presumably a minority of customers acting in bad faith. If even a tiny group of JUCE customers were surveyed and solicited for feedback before this license was finalized this moment could have mostly been avoided, and the JUCE team would have saved money on legal services regarding the inevitable rework of some of theses terms.

I acknowledge there is probably a lot more going on behind the scenes that we’re not privy to, but we’re all reacting to only the information we have in front of us.

JUCE team: you all seem like intelligent and reasonable people, so I hope through some discussion and consensus building with your community and customers you can find a decent balance that address the biggest concerns with the new license agreement while still meeting some of your internal objectives to close up some of these loopholes that have been exploited in bad faith, etc. Please don’t let this turn into Unity 2.0. Good luck.

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Requiring double licenses for contractors with their own license is a major blow out of touch with sanity and reality, need to reconsider my intent to upgrade to Juce8.

I work as contractor for many companies, the majority of these have not used Juce before so I advocated for Juce and made them buy the license. This worked fine, also to the benefit of Juce. But I will not ask my clients to buy a license before I can start working for them or ask if they have enough licenses if they are already using Juce.

Stupid question, will the purchase of Juce8 entail Juce7 with the Juce7 license model?

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Agreed. I just see all my clients sticking with JUCE 7.

Rail

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What if I’m a single developer trying to develop a commercial product using JUCE. There is almost zero income from the product sales since more work needs to be done developing the product. Do I still need to pay a monthly fee, even if that monthly fee is larger than my income?

In other words: is there really no revenue/income threshold for those JUCE license fees / monthly fees you have set?

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This seems fair to me.

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This seems the most reasonable. Contractor must have their own license (or one provided by the client, but that’s an unlikely situation). Publisher has 1 license in the case they have no internal developers, and a license for each addtional internal developer of code, be that C++ or some scripting language bound to JUCE. Specific language to exclude developers of assets that are not code (visual, audio, translations, documentation, etc.) The hardest part I suppose would be to exclude someone who provides purely visual assets, but does not exclude WebView UI developers by accident.

One question that remains for me:

I now have a JUCE 7 perpetual license and have cancelled my subscription. Should I wish to subscribe to JUCE 8 for my own purposes, would this supercede the JUCE 7 perpetual license and preclude me from contracting with a 3rd party on JUCE 7 based products?

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I really feel for everyone here who make a living through making and selling software. I’m in the other boat, working on an open source project (nothing released yet, but that’s the idea). Do I understand correctly that there is now no provision for open source licensing for a software project that uses Juce 8? I don’t see any mention of the GPL anymore, and clause 2.3 seems to forbit any sort of open source licensing in a Juce project.

I think JUCE8 moves from GPL to AGPL.

From my understanding, that’s how it is now with JUCE 7, but they want to change it. Right now we have a license, we hire a few DSP contractors who also have a paid license, and everybody’s happy.

With the new changes…

Story time!
Imagine you hire a contractor for a few hours to address a specific issue or to provide a small DSP class. You pay them for the service, and that’s all the work you need from them. Then you face an additional annual fee of $2,100.

A few months later, you hire another contractor for a different task, again only for a short period (a week). You’re hit with another $2,100 annual fee.

A year later, you decide to collaborate with another company to integrate some of their technologies into your products. They already own a paid JUCE license, as they sell their own products. After paying their invoice you face yet another annual charge of $2,100.

Then, you partner with a talented artist who needs specific DSP classes. You find another contractor who can provide exactly what’s required. Again, this adds $2,100 to your annual expenses. And if the artist, who is not handling any coding, becomes involved, that could mean yet another $2,100 per year.

You can see where this is going. We’re looking at over $10,000 per year or an additional $3,500 (perpetual) for each contractor’s job.

That’s exactly what we’ve faced over the past few years. I’m willing to pay for a Pro perpetual license, even if it means renewing it every year or so. However, adding five new seats under the scenarios I’ve described just isn’t feasible. It would ultimately force us not to hire contractors or artists, fundamentally changing the way we do business.

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let’s pay again for your car for every person who sits in it :rofl: (jk)

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I saw Tom’s comment about that, but I can’t see it mentioned anywhere in the license.

Licence should be: whoever makes money from the direct use of JUCE must pay for a license.

If my contractor provides just PNG images that I use for making my plugin UI, he’s not making money from JUCE, I am. He’s making money from Photoshop or whatever he uses to produce his PNG files… he doesn’t even know what C++ is. I shouldn’t pay extra money for whoever adds a bit to my product.

If we had to accept new JUCE rules, a plugin license should cost at least $500 instead of $50… Then what’s my excuse? Inflation? Please…

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Got to say here that none of these features really appeal to me, however getting all the iOS support up to date over the last 3 years would have been a useful addition!

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I don’t think that would be a reasonable ask. JUCE is not a charity, so everybody can choose to buy it or not.

It should be in JUCE’s interest though to keep a path for students or interested amateurs to invest in learning JUCE without taking a loan for it.

It is totally fine to increase the prices, everybody has to do that.

But charging multiple times and even again for really tangentially related persons in the team is neither fair nor practical.

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